如果国阵政府认为强迫非回教徒作出祈祷手势的事件都是个案，或许我可以再给联邦政府一个案例，以显示这些不是个案，而是冰山一角。
在 2008年4月13日，吉隆坡安邦路（Jalan Ampang）515后备军团（Rejimen 515 Askar Wataniah）的讲堂也曾经发生过强迫非回教徒作出祈祷手势的事件。根据投报人的说法，如果训练学员拒绝与马来学员一起作出祈祷手势就必须即刻离营，同时，举报人也担心，揭露这件事会导致当局以泄露军情为由而遭到革职处分。
后备军是我国国防正规军的支柱，无论来自任何种族的青年，加入后备军就是为了保家卫国，为马来西亚贡献一份力。如今这些来自各族群的热血青年因为军队内的宗教狂热份子干预自身的宗教信仰而感到无所适从。
根据2006年的统计，我国后备军团的华裔人数仅有5%，而槟城乔治市太子路（Lebuhraya Peel）的509后备军团（Rejimen 509 Askar Wataniah）是少数获得华裔踊跃响应的军团之一，其招揽的对象也不分种族，训练官甚至到各工业区进行巡回展出，以让更多青年知道保家卫国的重要性，参与后备军团的华裔也包括了许多大专资格，及在各领域担任主管职位的各行各业人士。
我国后备军团为了配合这些自愿参与军训的在职青年，甚至以弹性的时间迁就受训人员的工作时间，只在周末两天进行训练。新兵训练（Latihan Rekrut）内容也与正规军相似，同时也会获得军饷。在通过新兵训练后，学员可以选择参加地方性训练（Latihan Tempatan）和延续性训练（Latihan Lanjutan），并可被分配至不同的军种进行各类武器和配备的训练，比如装甲军（Kor Armour）、工兵团（Rejimen Askar Jurutera）、通讯兵团（Rejimen Semboyan）等等的不同军种训练。
然而，这个素来不分种族，以严格纪律获得优良声誉的后备军团，如今也被国阵政府的极端宗教政策所影响，而出现这种违反宪法中宗教自由条文的事件。
我要求国防部长阿末扎希（Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi）解释，为何在他掌管下的国防部会有这个情况的发生？同时我要求国防部解释，在2008年4月13日在515后备军团的训练营讲堂内，为何这名军官强迫这些非回教徒学员作出回教祈祷手势？同时必须向马来西亚的非回教徒公民解释这名军官的身份。
峇吉里国会议员
余德华
30.09.2010
YB Bakri, u are such an ignorant and subservient person. It just show your lack of knowledge and observation how an organisation such ATM is running. I lost my respect to such MP as yours who in one hand applauded being a MALAYSIAN first but on the other hand show a lacking disrespect to the SPB YDP Agong who is the Chief Commander of the Armed Forces. No wonder ppl sometimes can regards ppl like u as 'pendatang' because you never respect and taat setia pada YDP Agong. Shame you.
ReplyDeleteDear Morky ,
ReplyDeleteWhen you are trying to make your accusation, I need you to think carefully, thoughtfully before this allegation.
I try to put this in a very simple example here:
If this thing happen in United State, and a christian force a Muslim to perform a christian praying during any former occasion, do you think this is fair to our Muslim fellow?
Does this means that if the said Muslim against this ORDER will be treated as traitor to the country?
If you want to earn respect from other people for you - an individual like you, you will first need to learn to respect other races.
I have done my study before I release this statement, and this is NOT part of the wataniah military order NOR this never happen during 1990s in any Wataniah camp.
Criticism and disrespect is two different thing that you do not able to differential. And this is typical UMNO tactic which bring this country to the most miserable state
If you can't even follow a simple logic base on the very simple example I have provided above, I shame on you.
agree with YB....
ReplyDeletesupport you...
i also shame on those ppl, open house for all ppl, but cook curry lembu there ...
ReplyDeletethey dunno Hindu didn't makan lembu 1 meh?
YB, firstly to put our armed forces issue in context of what US Forces doing is irrelevant and none of our business. Have u ever be involved in any of the former regimental event? If no don't just make your accusation based on logic!
ReplyDelete2ndly to put an example of Christian US forces personnel forcing a muslim army forces personnel perfoming christian prayers is such degrading as your former allegation on our ATM. I'm talking in context of such organisation who has SOP and clear procedure. Don't simply make logical rule to uphold your stand.
Before u urself make allegation on 'dipaksa berdoa secara org Islam' I am assuming u urself never involved in any of Armed Forces activity in particular Wataniah, right. U are only allege on hearsay and logic. Do u first aware why we perform prayer (doa) in such manner?! Do u understand what is uniformity in Armed Forces? Don't u know in ATM, discipline and uniformity are essential to groom good soldiers for the country. If by performing doa (in which menadah tangan in uniformity) can be considered a sin and against anyone who perform it, I simply put u in that respect of disrespecting the armed forces code which ur urself don't uphold thus simply put your 'Taat Setia' to Agong in question becoz he is the Chief command of our Armed Forces
U see, berdoa dalam tentera has been practice ever since my ROTU days in university. I hv many chinese and Indian cadet officer squad who never bother about such matter back then becoz they understand berdoa is not the whole crux of any event. For example, during commisioning, in a kawad pentauliahan, each of everyone of us akan menadah tangan in uniformity to pray for the King health etc. Do u want in a commissioning event, those non muslim just remain quiet and held their head low during prayers? Doesn't it look odd in a army event to do that and again disrespecting the King who came and honour your commision.
What's wrong w u ppl? Suddenly after March 2008, you want to be populist and take this issue as your centre to spread more hatred. In addition, u get such organisation as Armed Forces to be involved whereby the stand of Armed Forces is unquestionable 'Taat Setia' nya kepada Raja dan negara? Where's your sense of belonging to thid country, YB?
If u are against berdoa in ATM, why not u also complaining about 'bertafakur' and meletakkan kalungan bunga di Tugu Negara every ATM day, I m sure that is against Islamic preaching. Why double standard?!
Yes, pre 1990s the army went thru 'zaman jahiliah' even liquor were served in Mess night but during the latter era, we hv introduce Kor Agama Angkatan Tentera (KAGAT) to cleanse all the wrongdoing in army. Of course it was never to islamisation the ATM organisation but to give 'soul' to the respective forces. Pls ask DSAI what he did back then when he was in cabinet.
I can question u in many ways but that will not stop me for saying u hv go overboard re the issue. The 515 AW commandant is a chinese. Maybe u can first refer to him. For me if anybody cannot simply follow order in such organisation as ATM, u never ought to be there. Shame as well to those who make complaint on this very petty issue.
YB, firstly to put our armed forces issue in context of what US Forces doing is irrelevant and none of our business. Have u ever be involved in any of the former regimental event? If no don't just make your accusation based on logic!
ReplyDelete2ndly to put an example of Christian US forces personnel forcing a muslim army forces personnel perfoming christian prayers is such degrading as your former allegation on our ATM. I'm talking in context of such organisation who has SOP and clear procedure. Don't simply make logical rule to uphold your stand.
Before u urself make allegation on 'dipaksa berdoa secara org Islam' I am assuming u urself never involved in any of Armed Forces activity in particular Wataniah, right. U are only allege on hearsay and logic. Do u first aware why we perform prayer (doa) in such manner?! Do u understand what is uniformity in Armed Forces? Don't u know in ATM, discipline and uniformity are essential to groom good soldiers for the country. If by performing doa (in which menadah tangan in uniformity) can be considered a sin and against anyone who perform it, I simply put u in that respect of disrespecting the armed forces code which ur urself don't uphold thus simply put your 'Taat Setia' to Agong in question becoz he is the Chief command of our Armed Forces
U see, berdoa dalam tentera has been practice ever since my ROTU days in university. I hv many chinese and Indian cadet officer squad who never bother about such matter back then becoz they understand berdoa is not the whole crux of any event. For example, during commisioning, in a kawad pentauliahan, each of everyone of us akan menadah tangan in uniformity to pray for the King health etc. Do u want in a commissioning event, those non muslim just remain quiet and held their head low during prayers? Doesn't it look odd in a army event to do that and again disrespecting the King who came and honour your commision.
What's wrong w u ppl? Suddenly after March 2008, you want to be populist and take this issue as your centre to spread more hatred. In addition, u get such organisation as Armed Forces to be involved whereby the stand of Armed Forces is unquestionable 'Taat Setia' nya kepada Raja dan negara? Where's your sense of belonging to thid country, YB?
If u are against berdoa in ATM, why not u also complaining about 'bertafakur' and meletakkan kalungan bunga di Tugu Negara every ATM day, I m sure that is against Islamic preaching. Why double standard?!
Yes, pre 1990s the army went thru 'zaman jahiliah' even liquor were served in Mess night but during the latter era, we hv introduce Kor Agama Angkatan Tentera (KAGAT) to cleanse all the wrongdoing in army. Of course it was never to islamisation the ATM organisation but to give 'soul' to the respective forces. Pls ask DSAI what he did back then when he was in cabinet.
I can question u in many ways but that will not stop me for saying u hv go overboard re the issue. The 515 AW commandant is a chinese. Maybe u can first refer to him. For me if anybody cannot simply follow order in such organisation as ATM, u never ought to be there. Shame as well to those who make complaint on this very petty issue.
YB, firstly to put our armed forces issue in context of what US Forces doing is irrelevant and none of our business. Have u ever be involved in any of the former regimental event? If no don't just make your accusation based on logic!
ReplyDelete2ndly to put an example of Christian US forces personnel forcing a muslim army forces personnel perfoming christian prayers is such degrading as your former allegation on our ATM. I'm talking in context of such organisation who has SOP and clear procedure. Don't simply make logical rule to uphold your stand.
Before u urself make allegation on 'dipaksa berdoa secara org Islam' I am assuming u urself never involved in any of Armed Forces activity in particular Wataniah, right. U are only allege on hearsay and logic. Do u first aware why we perform prayer (doa) in such manner?! Do u understand what is uniformity in Armed Forces? Don't u know in ATM, discipline and uniformity are essential to groom good soldiers for the country. If by performing doa (in which menadah tangan in uniformity) can be considered a sin and against anyone who perform it, I simply put u in that respect of disrespecting the armed forces code which ur urself don't uphold thus simply put your 'Taat Setia' to Agong in question becoz he is the Chief command of our Armed Forces
U see, berdoa dalam tentera has been practice ever since my ROTU days in university. I hv many chinese and Indian cadet officer squad who never bother about such matter back then becoz they understand berdoa is not the whole crux of any event. For example, during commisioning, in a kawad pentauliahan, each of everyone of us akan menadah tangan in uniformity to pray for the King health etc. Do u want in a commissioning event, those non muslim just remain quiet and held their head low during prayers? Doesn't it look odd in a army event to do that and again disrespecting the King who came and honour your commision.
And to those who think Open House or in bahasa malaysia 'rumah terbuka' should be a place for the food to be segregated based on racial belief. Please dont come to any open house instead. FYI, adat tuan rumah melayu, will always inform his fellow guest which food can be taken or not. Dont simply make logical accusation like our YB here. thank you
ReplyDeletemorky betul bodoh...
ReplyDeletelain kali bila open house, sila catat besar besar "jemput orang yang makan lembu saja"...
dan bukan catat "dijemput semua kaum"
that's why you dont hv to come in the first place scumbag! Easy to entertain 'other ppl' who can embrace and understand this country culture diversity rather separatist and chauvinist like u.
ReplyDeletelol
呵呵，不懂尊重别人的人，没资格谈尊重。
ReplyDelete老人家 aiyo,
ReplyDeleteu sudah berape lame belajar bahasa malaysia?
u tak faham ke ape maksud 'dijemput semua kaum'?
jemput saja maa... u mau datang u tak mau datang u punya suka maaa.. u mau makan ikan, kambing, lembu u punya suka maa... itu jemput saja. u tarak datang orang pun tatak heran maa.....
bahasa inggeris aaaaa 'you are most welcomed'
ada paham tarak paham?
anonparade,
ReplyDeletesaya ahhh macam ini 老人家.
saya mau jemput orang Melayu makan open house ahh tp sy ada masak babi juga.. boleh ka itu macam?
next time saya tulih 'ini tuan rumah makan babi, dijemput semua kaum'
u ingat ada orang Melayu sama Orang India mau datang ka?
aiyo saya tarak sensitip punya orang aa.
ah non,kalau saya jemput melayu datang rumah, saya akan sedia makanan yang halal sahaja.
ReplyDeleteYB ER punya chinese new yr open house, pun cari Restaurants yang halal CERT untuk sediakan makanan saje.
老人家,
ReplyDeleteBegitu juga saya, saya mesti sediakan masakan halal sebab saya orang Islam maa. Daging Lembu halal dimakan oleh orang Melayu jadi u tak boleh jemput orang India la datang open house u? tidak muhibbah la itu macam. ;)
Saya bagi cadangan sama u 老人家 ,
daging lembu you sedia. satay kambing pun u juga sedia tp u mesti cakap sama kawan India, ini lembu so u jangan makan, u makan itu satay kambing sama kuih2. Itu orang India lagi respek sama u maaaaaaaaaa. Selalu orang melayu buat itu macam takde masalah maa.. lagi orang India sama Cina hormat sama kita.
Rumah saya tiap2 tahun 1st day raya last 10 years semua bangsa datang. takde kecoh2 pasal itu makanan sbb diorg faham kita semua datang mau meraikan perayaan. Apa pasal mau bising2 sensitif pasal itu makanan? Itu rezeki tuhan Allah juga kasi maaaaaaaa..
Banyak bgs ini YB ER anjur CNY Open house halal punya. Tetapi you tahu tak ape makna halal? YOu ada bukak itu JAKIM punya halal portal? http://www.halal.gov.my/
Halal bukan sahaja pada sijil saja maa? itu sijil restoren halal, sijil JAKIM atau sijil swasta? kalau sijil bukan JAKIM tak dijamin halal maa oleh kerajaan.
U tau tak kalau telur ayam itu restoren guna tak dibasuh sudah tidak halal maa...
U tau tak kalau itu restoren tiada pekerja Islam sekurang kurangnya 2 orang pada SETIAP masa tidak halal maaa...
U tau tak itu daging halal sama daging khinzir tak boleh simpan satu tempat dalam cold room?
U tau tak kalau itu restoren Cina ada jual liquor sudah salahi undang2 halal?
Mesti check maaaaa
U ada check sama YB ER ke itu sijil dari JAKIM atau tidak? mesti kasi bukti sama proof macam YB ER selalu cakap maaaaaa....
Dear Mohsein,
ReplyDeleteI can see your afford to question me why I raise this issue. And as a people representative, regardless where you come from, I will try to respond to all your comments.
And I have very little time to sit down and respond to any comments immediately. But you are most welcome to discuss a single topic at a time. You can write any so-call "sensitive" issue to me and I will try me best to discuss with you provided with the condition that you have to keep open-minded and avoid any impolite words.
Here you go:
"YB, firstly to put our armed forces issue in context of what US Forces doing is irrelevant and none of our business. Have u ever be involved in any of the former regimental event? If no don't just make your accusation based on logic!"
So, it looks like you don't follow this simple logic. Instead of using US Forces for instance, I can just simply use any non-muslim country as my example to show that what happen if I treat you in the same manner.
Secondly, you said that only an military veteran can criticize any of the former regimental event? have you ever became a prime minister? If I follow your logic of thinking, only less then 0.005% of our local politician can criticize him as we will never have chance to become a prime minister. Is that what you mean here?
"2ndly to put an example of Christian US forces personnel forcing a muslim army forces personnel perfoming christian prayers is such degrading as your former allegation on our ATM. I'm talking in context of such organisation who has SOP and clear procedure. Don't simply make logical rule to uphold your stand."
So, show me what SOP you have for this issue. Show me the SOP in Black and White stated that forcing non-muslim trainee to perform Islamic prayer is part of the Military Code.
"Before u urself make allegation on 'dipaksa berdoa secara org Islam' I am assuming u urself never involved in any of Armed Forces activity in particular Wataniah, right. U are only allege on hearsay and logic. Do u first aware why we perform prayer (doa) in such manner?! Do u understand what is uniformity in Armed Forces? Don't u know in ATM, discipline and uniformity are essential to groom good soldiers for the country. If by performing doa (in which menadah tangan in uniformity) can be considered a sin and against anyone who perform it, I simply put u in that respect of disrespecting the armed forces code which ur urself don't uphold thus simply put your 'Taat Setia' to Agong in question becoz he is the Chief command of our Armed Forces."
Yes, you may follow your believe and to be a good Muslim, I have no objection.
Seen like you have some diffuclty to understand a very simple example I have illustrated it to you in my last message. Then, let me follow your logic to your convenience. You said: I against performing prayer in the army camp, so, I disrespect our King.
OK, check back my statement, and try to figure it out if I state that "I against berdoa in any army camp". Copy the sentence show it to me.
"U see, berdoa dalam tentera has been practice ever since my ROTU days in university. "
The answer is wrong. I do not know what kind of training have you been going through in your training. You may prove it to me if every preserve army camp had been practicing this at all times.
"I hv many chinese and Indian cadet officer squad who never bother about such matter back then becoz they understand berdoa is not the whole crux of any event. "
So, if someone you know does not express to you their thinking does not means that you can assume everybody is comfortable. Furthermore, this photograph and information is provided by a non-Muslim Wataniah and I am conveying exactly what he and his colleagues try to express.
continue lower floor...
"For example, during commisioning, in a kawad pentauliahan, each of everyone of us akan menadah tangan in uniformity to pray for the King health etc. Do u want in a commissioning event, those non muslim just remain quiet and held their head low during prayers? Doesn't it look odd in a army event to do that and again disrespecting the King who came and honour your commision."
ReplyDeleteThat is nothing wrong to stand up and held down their head and keep quiet during a commissioning event. So, now you try to suggest that everyone should pray for the King health for sake of uniformity. And you use the word "uniformity" and not "sincerity". Is "uniformity" part of your version of religious teaching? No, it does not happen to mine. My religion teach me to treat everyone equality and sincerity. As a Buddhist, I will choose to place hands palm-to-palm and even chanting mantra to worship our King. We pray with sincerity and not for uniformity nor symbolically.
"What's wrong w u ppl? Suddenly after March 2008, you want to be populist and take this issue as your centre to spread more hatred. In addition, u get such organisation as Armed Forces to be involved whereby the stand of Armed Forces is unquestionable 'Taat Setia' nya kepada Raja dan negara? Where's your sense of belonging to thid country, YB?"
You can't differential between an issue and a publicity. For your sense of logic, questioning a trainer in an army camp to force their non-Muslim trainees to perform Islamic prayer is dilsoyal to the King and the Country? Before you define your version of loyalty, please tell me which part of the Federal Constitution can stop me to rise above question? Do I question your belief?
"If u are against berdoa in ATM, why not u also complaining about 'bertafakur' and meletakkan kalungan bunga di Tugu Negara every ATM day, I m sure that is against Islamic preaching. Why double standard?!"
So, if you are complaining some decoration during ATM day is against Islamic preaching, you may have your freedom to express your view so that it won't "confuse" you to become unislamic. I am talking about do not force non-muslim army officers to perfrom something not inside their belief system. How do you relate two different context and say that is double standard?
continue next floor....
"Yes, pre 1990s the army went thru 'zaman jahiliah' even liquor were served in Mess night but during the latter era, we hv introduce Kor Agama Angkatan Tentera (KAGAT) to cleanse all the wrongdoing in army. Of course it was never to islamisation the ATM organisation but to give 'soul' to the respective forces. Pls ask DSAI what he did back then when he was in cabinet."
ReplyDeleteShow it to me which article in KAGAT stated that non-muslim militery officers have to follow this rule. To apply certain rule to make Muslim military officers to comply to Islam is a positive move from spirituous point of view. That I agree.
"I can question u in many ways but that will not stop me for saying u hv go overboard re the issue. The 515 AW commandant is a chinese. Maybe u can first refer to him. For me if anybody cannot simply follow order in such organisation as ATM, u never ought to be there. Shame as well to those who make complaint on this very petty issue. "
So, come back to this very simple fact, do I stop any Muslim to stop perform Islamic prayer in any occasion? I am asking why a trainer ask his non-Muslim trainees to perfrom Islamic prayer in the militery training. Simple and clear. But inside your mind, this simple and clear argument had been distorted and become "I stop everyone perform prayer in the army camp" and this is an act of disrespect to the King.
Since I have make my explanation clear enough for a normal human being to understand. If you want this "debate" to proceed, answer me this very simple question: "Is it right or wrong to ask a non-Muslim to perform Ismanic prayer during any official or non-official event and show me which part of our laws or regulation have stated so. "
-end-
"that's why you dont hv to come in the first place scumbag! Easy to entertain 'other ppl' who can embrace and understand this country culture diversity rather separatist and chauvinist like u. "
ReplyDeleteDear Mohsein,
you do agree we are a "culture diversity" country, but I though you just mentioned "uniformity" in your last comments? How are you going to have "diversity" and "uniformity" at the same place?
so, how do you define "chauvinist" in this "force non-Muslim trainee to preform Islamic prayer" issue?
"Culture diversity ppl or civil people dont question about their rights on petty issues they embrace with open arm and good heart. YB"
ReplyDeletemungkin YB lebih faham kalau saya sebut keseragaman daripada uniformity. YB faham apa keseragaman dalam Pakaian Seragam?
YB faham apa pasukan beruniform?
Jika kita berkawad jika tiada keseragaman nampak jelik dan tak elok. Apabila kita berkawad (Polis dan Tentera dan semua pertubuhan pakaian seragam, kita memakai pakaian yang sama dan bermegah dgn apa yg dipakai sambil melakukan arahan secara seragam bagi menunjukkan kesatuan.
Jika waktu berdoa dalam kawad mahupun dalam majlis tentera tiada keseragaman bagaimana mahu kita pupuk kesatuan dalam mempertahankan negara?
Itu adalah persoalan saya yang nyata, tidak perlu rujuk mana2 organisasi ketenteraan manapun di dunia
mungkin saya harus tulis dalam bahasa melayu untuk YB lebih faham. ;)
To answer you YB,
you friend here who called me bodoh for being insensitive to Indian, he said here;
"老人家 said...
morky betul bodoh...
lain kali bila open house, sila catat besar besar "jemput orang yang makan lembu saja"...
dan bukan catat "dijemput semua kaum"
I was referring to his statement which i found unfounding. He disgrace himself by seperating the diversity in our nation!and he got that in my reply as stated in your 1st para.
The context of uniformity only being raised in my statement about Armed Forces. There is nothing to do about latter issue. Dont get too excited YB and put me to the sword like that. :D
i dont know about chauvinist becos i never try to be one. sorry.
OK. this will be my last reply for today. And I am happy you understand we are discussing and not arguing.
ReplyDeleteyou said "keseragaman dalam Pakaian Seragam", that is applied to discipline, and discipline refers to systematic instruction and uniformity. A disciple have to obey the order from his/her superior to achieve this goal.
So, this does not means that you can "standardize" method of praying. That is totally different concept. Regardless that is symbolically or not. Because that involve in an individual's belief system and this is sensitive to some individual - especially some religious one.
For instence. if you are surrounding with a group of Christian Trainees and they ask you, as a Muslim to perform their way of prayer. Do you think this is a small matter?
Saudara Mohsein boleh tulis dalam apa-apa bahasa sahaja. Walaupun saya tidak menlajutkan pelajaran saya selapas tingkatan 5, saya cuba faham setiap ayat saudara tulis, tak kira comment itu berniat jahat atau comment negetive.
And to Saudara Mohsein, what had been stated by "老人家"(it means Old Man) is his/her individual opinion and I don't know his person.
Your argument with this person in this "open house" topic is another issue and I agree with you that we should stick with our original debate topic.
So, you have make your stand clear and I have stated my reasons clear. If you think this is my individual thought, I can ensure that you are wrong. Go and ask your non-Muslim friends and see if they agree with your uniformity theory before we continue this discussion.
Anyway, thinks for sharing your opinion and have a good day.
Terima kasih YB namun saya ada sedikit lagi penjelasan dalam ruangan FB, jika YB sudi baca saya akan kupas juga komen YB yg terakhir di sana.
ReplyDeleteHave a good day to you too YB.
YB.B4 you announce this new to public and ask Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi to answer ur question, do really understand what was happen on that time ? Do u just get the photo and information from " 1 " person only?
ReplyDeleteFor my experience, the officer or " Juru latih " never force the non muslim to hand up. They will explain the purpose for hand up. If cant accept for hand up, they ask ur just quiet there.
Normally, they will ask to hand up for pray when certain activity, and purpose for pray is make sure the activity can complete with smooth and safe. No muslim army will follow and agree.
That is totally different with what u say to public. One more thing, when u show the photo to public, on the same time u maybe reveal country secret to public. Please think before you speak.
YB.B4 you announce this new to public and ask Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi to answer ur question, do really understand what was happen on that time ? Do u just get the photo and information from " 1 " person only?
ReplyDeleteFor my experience, the officer or " Juru latih " never force the non muslim to hand up. They will explain the purpose for hand up. If cant accept for hand up, they ask ur just quiet there.
Normally, they will ask to hand up for pray when certain activity, and purpose for pray is make sure the activity can complete with smooth and safe. No muslim army will follow and agree.
That is totally different with what u say to public. One more thing, when u show the photo to public, on the same time u maybe reveal country secret to public. Please think before you speak.
Agree with Jesse Tan that all this hype about the bacaan doa doesnt reflect in the picture YB Er has shown us. Picture can say a thousand word, YB
ReplyDeleteWhy not you watch this youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1bfu8geM8E
about Istiadat Penganugerahan Panji2 where at 4.22/7.38 clearly show prosedur bacaan doa dalam acara istiadat ATM yg menunjukkan semua anggota tidak kira Melayu, Bukan Melayu, Islam dan Bukan Islam menadah tangan dan berdoa.
Bacaan doa dalam acara istiadat adalah prosedur regimental, tidak boleh disamakan sebagai cara berdoa orang Islam.
举报人也担心，揭露这件事会导致当局以泄露军情为由而遭到革职处分。
ReplyDeleteDear YB,
Did you do your study or data analysis after the 举报人 giving you a photo or word? Wandering how your step to get understanding/verify this report credibility. Your action like just sitting at office simply pick the topic and spread it out without thinking! Please goto Camp Rejimen 515 Askar Wataniah for understanding the issue. Your ignorance is giving the wrong information to the public.
You are welcome Mohsein Shariff.
ReplyDeleteIm non muslim and anggota Rej 515.
i just say the true and not agree what YB said to public.
反对强迫非回教徒做出祈祷手势。请尊重大家的宗教信仰
ReplyDeleteYB, this is purely academic. I will copy some excerpt of my response to you in FB in this column to share my arguments and re-argument for the benefit of viewers understanding on my stand on this issue. Tq
ReplyDelete" Dear YB, Thank you for your prompt reply and feedback. However I found it would rather nonacademic to counter and recounter all statement and comment by you and me because it is well understood that both of us never speak the same language in the first place. It will take many days for us to keep questioning each other and it will drag us off from the real picture.
Saya hanya bercakap dalam konteks seorang yang pernah melalui latihan ketenteraan. I will never indulge in any matter outside millitary issue being raised how matter simple logic argument you present me because it can never be applied as same in the context of Armed Forces issue that being raised. For that i wont be aswering few of your argument.
In term of ATM SOP or any Armed Forces, it will be wasteless to ask me. The matter should be presented to Majlis ATM instead. What i am trying to say all the armed forces around the world have their SOP and every single soldiers is abide to it. Again I am using all my argument in Armed Forces context hence what i meant when i said was 'example of Christian US forces personnel FORCING a muslim army forces personnel perfoming christian prayers is also unfounding and such a degrading act as your allegation on our ATM saying 'ATM FORCING them to berdoa secara Islam.'
-continue next column-
'Please come to Istiadat Pentauliahan Pegawai Muda Askar Wataniah which is held annually at different public university in attendance of the King who would later commision them. Or maybe the next istiadat perarakan panji2 Diraja in conjuction of His Majesty birthday at Dataran Merdeka. You will see acara berdoa (not forcibly) being done as part of the ceremonial by all the personnel disregard of his/her background to prove my point of berdoa dalam ATM.
ReplyDeleteBefore we go further, let me put a clear picture how doa in Islam being practise in a simple BM.
"Berdoa secara Islam pada adatnya merapatkan kedua2 tangan dan dibacakan AMIN berselang2 tetapi dalam prosedur ketenteraan berdoa hanya menadah tangan separas bahu dengan tangan tegak dan diam. Ia tidak sekali2 mencermin cara orang Islam berdoa sekalipun. Ia cuma satu contoh kawad dalam tentera yg menunjukkan keseragaman ketika berdoa."
to answer "Furthermore, this photograph and information is provided by a non-Muslim Wataniah and I am conveying exactly what he and his colleagues try to express." pls check with your source whether they have been instructed to say 'AMIN' throughout or simply keep quiet during the whole bacaan doa process? So to say they are forcibly to berdoa secara Islam is not right in the first place.
(refer harakahdaily http://www.harakahdaily.net/v2/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28848%3Amengapa-paksa-bukan-islam-ikut-cara-islam&catid=1%3Autama&Itemid=50)
I can see the picture u hv given and i can assure u orang islam tidak tegak berdoa malah tunduk tawaduk menangkuk tangan dekat ke muka. Berdoa di dalam ATM cannot be said represent Islamic way of prayers. Please check further on Islamic doa with your PAS counterpart. and your earlier remarks on Malaysiakini portal saying that berdoa secara Islam is a racist remark is more uncalled for. How you can come with such accusation when Islam is a way of life and a belief that never segregate its ummah? U are confused on potraying Islam to be Malay. That is totally wrong.
-continue next column-
'YB, you dont question my belief indeed but your question the 2nd of rukunegara. Kesetiaan kepada Raja dan Negara by voicing this issue which was never an issue in the first place and i was saddened because it has involved such organisation as ATM which i know will defend country and the King with all their heart.
ReplyDeleteAgain i never said that u stop everyone perform prayer in army camp. WHAT I SAID was your allegation that this non muslim trainees is FORCIBLY perform Islamic Prayer is wrong because it was never force, It was an order/instruction which any soldiers have to follow and the prayer never represent Islamic prayer as a whole at least. So jumping the ship saying Forcing to perform Islamic Prayer is wrong in my opinion.
In ATM event, berdoa is part of the event and anyone who is part of the ceremony will respect the moment by berdoa in a Kawad berdoa position (not Islamic way)
u said in your blog;
"Because that involve in an individual's belief system and this is sensitive to some individual - especially some religious one."
Ok noted, If your version berdoa secara Islam in Armed Forces is intimidating and sensitive to some. I wonder how is 'Penggunaan Nama Allah dalam Agama Kristian dan buku Kristian berbahasa Melayu' can be more sensitive to some also.
Which ever which. We cant never please everybody.
Thank you, i rest my case
-end-
ok, here we go.
ReplyDeleteDear Jasse and LoOI-KoNG,
First of all, I will assume you both understand Chinese and able to read chinese newspaper. During June 2010, Duputy Educational Minister said "incident which students were forced to perfrom Islamic prayer will not be REPAETED again in Sekolah Memengah Sultan Abu Bakar".
And the allegation was made based on ONE complaint from A parent. I know this because I received the complaint from the same source on April 2010.
My responsibility is to raise any concern from any of Malaysian and it is up to the Federal Government for the explanation.
And, read my statement very carefully. Did I accuse EVERY preserve army camp in the country for doing this? I am asking very specifically for a particular time and particular place. And The MoD need to explain this to the people.
And for Saudara Mohsein Shariff,
Check your copy of Federal Constitution, which article can stop me to question MoD for all their policy? Find it out, copy and paste it into this post.
Dear Saudara Mohsein Shariff,
ReplyDeleteYou are running yourself deep into some conceptual argument and I agree with you, if I am sincere enough to answer every statement of you, it will take days or weeks for the whole debate. And believe it or not, I have more then enough issues to raise in my constituency and I do not need this kind of "popularity" as you and Jasse may assume.
And for your acknowledgment. If I try to get myself popular in Chinese Community, I don't need to release this statement in Bahasa Malaysia. In fact the same article was sent to Harakah Daily and it had been published.
If you really want a GOOD debate, let's come over to Muar. I will reserve the whole day to discuss with you as this is a very fundamental problem in our country. I foresee you are a open-minded young man.
Dear Saudara Mohsein,
You need to come into very basic, very fundamental issue.
1. They are forced to perform Islamic prayer and the trainer asked them to leave if they disobey. You can assume the Whistle Blower is lie to me OR this is the isolated case. It is up to you to imagine. And for me, as an people representative, voice out an individual or a group of people's opinion means same thing to me.
You do not need to answer to this statement, it is the MoD who will need to answer that.
And for the rest of your pending argument, I will spend some time to write an article under this topic.
Finally, just for your information, some of my assistants are veteran of Preserve Army.
Dear YB or I just directly call you as Politician,
ReplyDeleteBase on your word "allegation was made based on ONE complaint from A parent. I know this because I received the complaint from the same source on April 2010."
Ya, I know that is a complain. But my question is how you step to get understanding/verify this report credibility, you did not answer that. So with a un-know report credibility, and without go for the 吉隆坡安邦路（Jalan Ampang）515后备军团（Rejimen 515 Askar Wataniah）as you wrote to understand the issue. Did you do your job, you just simply start on this topic?
My responsibility is to raise any concern from any of Malaysian and it is up to the Federal Government for the explanation.
It sound very pretty, but just base on a complain and without any data analysis/understanding. You say your "responsibility is to raise any concern from any of Malaysian and it is up to the Federal Government for the explanation" I questioning about your professional!
And, read my statement very carefully. Did I accuse EVERY preserve army camp in the country for doing this? I am asking very specifically for a particular time and particular place. And The MoD need to explain this to the people.
YB, accuse problem is your job and you just write "在 2008年4月13日，吉隆坡安邦路（Jalan Ampang）515后备军团（Rejimen 515 Askar Wataniah）的讲堂也曾经发生过强迫非回教徒作出祈祷手势的事件。" at the beginning. And YB without go for understanding the issue, but asking MoD need to explain this to the people. And this is the 2nd time i questioning about your professional!
I find out that is difficult to talk with Politician like YB, this topic is without any solving or solution. YB keep asking people to read your statement very carefully, MoD to explain to people...
Dear YB,
ReplyDeleteI shouldn't be answering all of your argument again and again because we have come to the understanding we have other issue to concern rather than this 'popularity' issue that has been raised here.
however, i am answering you because some of my points have not been received well by you or by group of veteran reserve (not preserve) army or in Malaysia better known as Askar Wataniah/ Territorial Army (TA) assistants who seem as oblivious as you regarding the argument that I raised with regard case in Rej 515 AW
Firstly from your reply, i can make conclusion that you are trying to champion all Malaysian disregard where they are; albeit you are only the representative of BAKRI to begin with. To put your shoes to every Malaysian problem for me is a daunting task and i don't see necessary because they don't vote for you. You suppose in the first place direct this issue to Ampang MP, YB Zuraida Kamaruddin from PKR to champion about it. That would be a better empowerment between PR coalition. rite?
I am based my argument on your statement "My responsibility is to raise any concern from any of Malaysian and it is up to the Federal Government for the explanation."
in reply to Jesse Tan of Rej 515 AW and Looi Kong who seems understand better our argument even though they are a non muslim AW personnel.
2ndly, IMHO you have all the right to question about government policy, I no need to check my constitution version, It just put your credibility at stake because from your argument I only see you as an MP who will 'hentam kromo' and become champion questioning all govt policy without studying/embracing/experiencing the gist and the essence why such policy being introduced/instructed in the first place; in this context - why bacaan doa was done in uniformity in Armed Forces regimental procedure and in your picture context why the non muslim at Rej 515 AW have to perform in UNIFORMITY (keseragaman) bacaan doa as part of their training.
I would like to emphasis, there are never force taken place rather instruction and in my argument i have stated those bacaan doa CANT be considered as the same as muslim prayers because they are just a marching (kawad) position -
Please watch the youtube video i gave you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1bfu8geM8E
about Istiadat Penganugerahan Panji2 where at 4.22/7.38 clearly show prosedur bacaan doa dalam acara istiadat ATM yg menunjukkan semua anggota tidak kira Melayu, Bukan Melayu, Islam dan Bukan Islam menadah tangan dan berdoa. After watching it then we are free to argue further if you see any wrong in it as part of the marching parade procedure. I hope you ask you group of army reserve friends to watch it as well.
-continue next column-
YB,
ReplyDeleteyou put yourself that you don't need kind of popularity raising the issue as we might assume. And you said yourself in your statement; "If I try to get myself popular in Chinese Community, I don't need to release this statement in Bahasa Malaysia. In fact the same article was sent to Harakah Daily and it had been published."
Well, you are just hitting yourself and hiding the stone but unfortunately for everyone to see that your popularity have now gone beyond race by highlighting issue that never was issue in the first place just to support your agenda against Duputy Educational Minister regarding incident which students were forced to perfrom Islamic prayer in Sekolah Menengah Sultan Abu Bakar. And you put all these cases remarks as racist act are even more saddening. You, yourself cannot differentiate between race and religion. Sorry
There is no need for me to come to MUAR. Thank you for your invitation. Both of us have different interpretation about the fundamental of how this nation is built upon. I am a very open minded about it. Not all issues can be solved by simple, fundamental logic because we live in a country where 'Fair doesn't always mean Equality'
Finally, i am saddened and disappointed with your group of veteran reserve (not preserve) army assistants who seem lacking awareness but proud to call themselves veteran AW and could not offer you a very simple advise of Ministry of Defence initial.
It is not MoD, YB. It is MINDEF!
I'm reservist of 515th Regiment, also the senior of the recruits as mentioned above, the hand gesture is only a drill, for uniformity during the prayer session. Pray in your religion with that gesture, is not a problem for me.
ReplyDeleteThe recruits/informer, i bet him/she sleep during those classes. I even think he/she not active in the reservist anymore.
Dear Anon,
ReplyDeleteunfortunately, our YB who claims himself champion for all Malaysians cannot justify and differentiate between a drill in uniformity with a forcible act as he accused happening in our regiment AW training camp
It is all because he want to fulfill his alter ego and questioning every rights he has in his capacity as MP/citizen.
YB, not all like you want to be politician.
some of us just want to life a simple life as Malaysian without too many issues to be politicize.
Stop politicking unnecessarily. Get a life!
i just have to say... the army n in school are totally 2 diff. thing u cant compare n i can accurately assure any of u that the photo given doesnt tally with the batch (2008/4) YB mentioned..i am also a reservist of Reg. 515 AW... i dun have problem with that(menadah tangan).. whoever that gave u(YB) that information shud b ashame of him/herself... shame also on those(if he/she doesnt exist) who try to once again raise the issue...
ReplyDeleten if he/she (if really does exist) cant go with the uniformity... then he/she doesnt deserve & shud not consider him/herself as one of us (AW).
agree Pak Non, i don't see this as a big issue here, besides, Malaysia is a multi racial country.
ReplyDeleteIf everyone were to raise the issue everytime they feel discomfort with these (racist, religious, etc) issues, then im sure our politician would have gone nut, and malaysian would have gone hating each other because not everyone is that loving and these kind of issues will definitely give those racist people a hand to grab on and which might eventually cause riot among the people,please think deep, all we ask for is a peaceful life.
Im sure there are lot more problems waiting to be solve out there, don't you (YB) have anything better to do?? or is this the best you (YB) can do( questioning the unnecessary)??
Be mature
这些人怎么迫不及待地帮部长回答问题啊？
ReplyDelete真可笑。
成熟点啦！
再说，宪法赋予国会议员问责的权利，你（们）这些人凭什么阻止？
#根据投报人的说法，如果训练学员拒绝与马来学员一起作出祈祷手势就必须即刻离营#
看清楚这段文字了吗？
一直钻牛角尖的是你（们）吧？
Dear YB, I'm one of the guy in tat photo and tat batch.... seriously i dun think tat's an issue. I'm DAP supporter but tis time i think u are too sensitive.
ReplyDeleteBenny , i have the same feel with u.
ReplyDeleteI m ur sr.. 6156XXX hehe
你们是真人吗？怎么我没听过你们的名字？
ReplyDeletehi benny... sure u know me.. im in the same batch as u too... im in tht pic too... i have the same feeling as we r the recruits of this very reg 515 aw... dunno who this ' old man ' is.. im very sure he has no idea whts happening in the reg as we know better... if we r not real... how possible for us to stand for our very respective reg...? im sure those who have had training in this reg have good relationship with our jurulatih.. n due to THAT VERY 1 person's prob, this has become an issue.. besides, we (AW or any military ppl) know very well tht it is for uniformity.. it is formal.. i always prefer DAP bt in this case... im afraid DAP is no longer a choice i wud prefer.
ReplyDeletepersonally, i think this has gone too far to questioning the ATM... n i really think tht this is unnecessary ( no offence).
no offend, don u think tht if this issue were to released, it'll cause another religious issue... as ppl out there regardless whether they know or dunno whts going on will also start to participate in this whole misconception?? n wht wud b the outcome of this issue??... there will b no solution bt another riot, causing the discomfort of the society? is this wht we r looking forward??
to 'old man'
u said according to the informer ' anyone refuse to agree with the uniformity will have to leave the reg'.. please b confirmed whether this statement is true enuf? as as far as i concern.. i never encounter such saying during my training.. please, u b MATURE... b reasonable over here... we all knows better whos the 1 been twisting the truth...
老人家`~
ReplyDelete现在的青年是很有知识性的！宪法赋予国会议员问责的权利，我（们）这些人是不能阻止的。 但同样的国会议员的无知，我（们）这些人也是不能阻止吧！我们不可以空从没有调查/确认投报人哪里来的故事和照片，就去问责各部门。 所以我建议YB先去发生该案的地方做了解/调查/确认投报真实性和情况。
#根据投报人的说法，如果训练学员拒绝与马来学员一起作出祈祷手势就必须即刻离营#
看清楚这段文字了吗？
一直钻牛角尖的是你（们）吧？
我回 #根据投报人的说法，老人家飙车# 看清楚这段文字了吗？
现在到老人家你去钻牛角尖吧~
老人家 said...
这些人怎么迫不及待地帮部长回答问题啊？
# 其实我在帮助YB了解情况，指出YB不明和遗漏之处
真可笑。
#是你无知吧~
成熟点啦！
#我有合理的见解，而你的成熟是来自哪里？
i support looi kong
ReplyDeletegood saying
If he dun believe we inside, just show them our name and id.... let them see, we didnt do wrong also....just wanna let outside ppl noe, dun spoil malaysia harmony...pls
ReplyDeleteNow I start to think is those principles who raise sensitive issues izzit being tokok tambah? YB Er, I think tis time u really spoil DAP name especially with us, this young generation.
ReplyDeleteLooi Kong：
ReplyDeleteAre u 2003 recruits?? I'm 2004 recruit.
老人家：
我们不能阻止，只是提出YB的盲点罢了。再加上发生在我们的军营里，在这里的各位华人后备军都说出事实罢了。
Jess:
I'm ur senior 6148XXX whakaka.
ID not safe here, and dun believe the people personality at here. Keep ur self in safe place!!
ReplyDeletehi Coperal law... im 2009 recruits... n i totally agreed to u... the truth is wht matters
ReplyDeletesalam 1 malaysia ~
ReplyDeletenombor saya 619**** !!! semua orang call me during army recruit ~
I also 1 of the person in that photo also, but in year 2008 is 2009 !!!
dear YB,
I do not know you are trying to make some topic issue or what. What I only can say is the "非回教徒学生作出回教祈祷手势" is for uniformity.. it is formal. I no think have any problem with the 祈祷手势?!
and i also agree with looi-kong said please do not simply listen what the reporter said but I think you personal have go to 去发生该案的地方做了解/调查/确认投报真实性和情况。
hope u understand my rojak language.
best regret,
YDP
To all~
ReplyDeletethis is a open page and un-secure page, plz dun simply post ur Name and code on it. To avoid unnecessary trouble.
我想问上面的这些军人们，如果不拿起手做祈祷手势会如何。换句话说，照片里面的多数是华人，为何他们还要这样做?就是因为你们都忍气吞声，才会导致它们越来越极端。现在连学校都入侵了，yb说出来有何不对？照理说这已经是宗教歧视。宪法规定回教是官方宗教，不过每个公民都有宗教自由信仰。如果有哪位军官叫他们合掌做佛教手势我看那位军官早就中内按法令了。我绝对不会送我的孩子进这样的军营。
ReplyDelete宗教是个人的，站立个或者各自祈祷各别信仰比较妥当。不要一直说军队必须一致必须牵涉宗教来达到目的，这是最没有道理很不尊重其他信仰者。其实如果军人要做到效率好和一致认同就必须抛弃宗教因素在军队和必须训练自我判断力。
ReplyDelete那你要知道，他们的举手和我们的是不同的，他们那是神圣的回教手势，他们怎么不要你们双手合掌???却要和他们一样用回教手势??
ReplyDelete原来那就是尊重
拜观音的佛教徒都不吃牛肉的，但是根本没人会Bird这个，牛肉照样Serve , 我们都没Kao Peh,因为我们知道什么是尊重。 但是我们在他面前吃 XX , 他告到你脱裤。
以上的无知军人（自称的）真可笑，竟然把军事重地当作宗教场所。
ReplyDeleteTO Anonymous~
ReplyDelete我想问上面的这些军人们，如果不拿起手做祈祷手势会如何。
#我想会事先要求不愿意拿起手做祈祷手的人离开该列队，列队时要求一致性的动作而你的个人性不合作会影响整体的观容。而什么是列队的定义，请你上网找一找好吗？
换句话说，照片里面的多数是华人，为何他们还要这样做?就是因为你们都忍气吞声，才会导致它们越来越极端。
1#为何他们还这样做？抱歉的，我不知道。毕竟那是他们个人的想法。而我这样做是应为清楚的明白和了解我当时的工作/任务在做什么->列队！在工作专业化的角度来讲，你是不会争论为何有人在休假而你在做工的不人道/没人权的课题吧。这是在于你对你工作/任务了解有多少，而不了解的人就会挑起不人道/不人权的课题。
2#你有访问照片中的人吗，你怎么知道他们忍气吞声？这是Anonymous 的个人观点吧~ 极端的一群，在每个种族都有。极端是应为“个人观点”和“自我中心想法”过强而造成吧。
现在连学校都入侵了，yb说出来有何不对？照理说这已经是宗教歧视。宪法规定回教是官方宗教，不过每个公民都有宗教自由信仰。
#我没有说YB不对啊，这又是Anonymous“个人观点”认为吧！在我读书的年代（早十年前）学校已有了佛学会，基督青年会等等。。。对于你是否参与，校方都给与充分的自由。Anonymous 的宗教歧视是来自哪里？
如果有哪位军官叫他们合掌做佛教手势我看那位军官早就中内按法令了。我绝对不会送我的孩子进这样的军营。
#我看如果这位军官存在的话，他会先中部队里的纪律审讯吧~做出这样没逻辑的行为。Anonymous 你会把你的封见带到给下一代，让他更难融入社会。
你有访问照片中的人吗，你怎么知道他们不是忍气吞声？这是LoOI-KoNG这伙人（也许是同样一个人）的个人观点吧~
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous~
ReplyDelete宗教是个人的，站立个或者各自祈祷各别信仰比较妥当。
#你对于“列队”有多少了解？据你所说的话，你会看到列队时有人跪拜，有人祈祷，有人合掌的不一致动作。不一致动作怎能称作列队呢？
不要一直说军队必须一致必须牵涉宗教来达到目的，这是最没有道理很不尊重其他信仰者。
#这手势只在于列队，在宗教信仰是个别的。在周五祈祷时候，个别信仰的是给与自由活动时间。这有“最没有道理很不尊重其他信仰者。” 吗？ Anonymous的不理解，可以亲自到该部门/地方考察！
其实如果军人要做到效率好和一致认同就必须抛弃宗教因素在军队和必须训练自我判断力。
#在现实中，军队里面一直都是这样啊？ 只有同伴和等级而已。
To Anonymous~
ReplyDelete你有访问照片中的人吗，你怎么知道他们不是忍气吞声？这是LoOI-KoNG这伙人（也许是同样一个人）的个人观点吧~
#如果我说我曾经参与，我可以给我那时的想法跟观点吗？比起在外观的你们，我比较了解内情^^ LoOI-KoNG 是我个人称号，我想大概别人不会用这样奇怪的称呼吧~
To Anonymous~
ReplyDelete那你要知道，他们的举手和我们的是不同的，他们那是神圣的回教手势，他们怎么不要你们双手合掌???却要和他们一样用回教手势??
原来那就是尊重
#这个比较论语性质的，有如-〉为什么有钱人那么有钱，他们不知道我们没钱吗？ 然后要求财产平分化。 我不知道该怎样回答你的问题。
拜观音的佛教徒都不吃牛肉的，但是根本没人会Bird这个，牛肉照样Serve , 我们都没Kao Peh,因为我们知道什么是尊重。 但是我们在他面前吃 XX , 他告到你脱裤。
#如果你事先对服务员表明你是拜观音的佛教徒，你是不会遇到这种待遇吧~ 而服务员也会脸皮厚到把牛肉顿上来。 没有指出/告知服务员们的遗漏之处，是告知者疏忽而不是尊不尊重的问题吧。我们的大方，所以我们鲜有“告到你脱裤” 的情形。
BOB said...
ReplyDeleteTo LoOi-KoNG~
我们的时代已过了近十载.以前的教官如何在训练时其对待我(们)的方式,我们都不觉得有什么不妥.你的看法(列队与普通训练时之别),我相当的举手认同.但是,我们的时候绝对没有"强制性"这个字眼来要我们举手祷告. 你我也不能确定是不是一百仙的战友都不是斤斤计较,不能排除有少数的是心有不甘. 可能,你我当时都是热爱学习而加入后备军.我(们)这一班都可迁就教官的指示.
可是, 过了这么多年. 我们都知道军营里的教官都已面目全非了.他们是不是会有如此的极端(不跟'我'举手祷告,就离营吧),你我都不解里面的状况是如何.
。
to LoOI-KoNG:
ReplyDelete你说话很大声。至少到目前为止，无法证明你是其中一个参与者。
先假设你是：
那么：1- 你完全了解你的父母孩子吗？
所以，你的想法不代表所有参与者的想法。
To Anonymous~
ReplyDelete以上的无知军人（自称的）真可笑，竟然把军事重地当作宗教场所。
#在当幕的参与的军人会比外观的人无知吗？ 那外观有知的你又知道些什么？ 把军事重地当作宗教场所?? 你的观点是来自哪里？
To Anonymous~
ReplyDelete你说话很大声。至少到目前为止，无法证明你是其中一个参与者。
#从文字中，也可以听到我的声音大小 ^^！ 一直以来我都以知情的态度作答。 我的说话有理由吗，证实身份有帮助吗？ 有常识的人都不会随意在网页告知身份来给于自己麻烦， 毕竟人心难测。
那么：1- 你完全了解你的父母孩子吗？
所以，你的想法不代表所有参与者的想法。
#现在的孩子思想成熟的很快，他们有自己理解的一套。父母保护孩子的看法我很佩服和感恩，但过度保护会有反效果。你对于‘温室草莓培植’有如何的看法。 ’我的想法不代表所有参与者的想法‘ 对阿！所以我要求YB或你前去该部门/地方考察，和问问参与者的看法。
我国的后备军人什么时候这么没胆了啊？
ReplyDelete连军人都没有安全感，更别说大众了。
可怜。
P/S:我说的是那些（个）不敢证实身份，又死硬说自己在现场的人，不是我国勇敢的军人，请大家别误会。
To Anonymous~
ReplyDelete我国的后备军人什么时候这么没胆了啊？
连军人都没有安全感，更别说大众了。
可怜。
#这就是你与我之间的差别，在于‘智慧’ 军人有勇无谋会令你有安全感的话，100条命都不够死，还谈什么保卫国家。有胆，看是用在什么地方！这就是为何你是用Anonymous而不把你的姓名，电话和IC Post上来阿！！ 个人安全和避免不必要的麻烦！ 你令我联想到两个字 ^^
to Anonymous~
ReplyDelete真是笑看你原来也是一名后备军.你在军营一个月学了些什么?争取人权民主? 争取上司与下属的互相尊敬? 何谓军人的基守则,你还记得吗?
一名军人, 下属对上司只有100%的服从.(你别自己想着一厢情愿地可能， yes 'or' not).如果要讲究人权民主的话，你设想吧，还有军纪可言吗？ 难道少数的上司与教官需要跟从多数的下属（你们这些REKRUT)？你是军人的话，你该明白二等兵（PREBET)可是没什么人权可言的，只有人道可以为底线。所以，为什么军营在训练期间是可接受学员退伍（就是说接受的话就继续，不然就退伍）。就算是训练时，难道他们会操练到学员们至体无完肤或死亡吗（他们只是操练到学员累坏已是基本的人道）？ 难道，历年来数百名完成后备军训练的华人都是在忍辱偷生。 退伍的人当然也不是懦夫，只是他们明白军人的生活与训练方式是不适合他们的。他们都可选择离开！
看你总只是把“大众化的人权基本观”不断融入在军营里。试问这得公平吗？你跟YB的一般见识的看法又有何不同。
这是心理上的强逼.都是一群无知的军人,全世界的多元种族国家我看只有马来西亚这样实行.可否yb将此事件公诸于天下，让全世界的人来评论。上面的国防部长助理，不要在出卖自己的良心了。
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous~
ReplyDelete这是心理上的强逼.都是一群无知的军人,全世界的多元种族国家我看只有马来西亚这样实行.可否yb将此事件公诸于天下，让全世界的人来评论。上面的国防部长助理，不要在出卖自己的良心了。
#心理上的强逼... 这很难定义！和你示好握手，你是否觉得我在强迫性的和你肉体接触？
#到该部门/地方考察而不在空讲会增加YB对事情的了解，方便日后yb在将此事件公诸于天下，对于全世界的人来评论时有所作答！
#国防部助理应该不会理会这样孩子气/无知的论谈吧 ^^!
To Anonymous~
ReplyDelete所谓心理上的强逼.你的用词也很虚幻喔.
尽然以你一人的看法，断定历年来数百名华人后备军是个无知。你果然是大马华人中的“万中无一”的智者。
至于YB把它公诸于世， 更可笑啦。就是等于让一大群的局外人来评论当局者的状况。 你能接受本田车的使用者来评论马赛地吗？
照你所说，照片里那些华裔军人都自愿做回教手势？可是我看他们照片里的表情个个都觉得好无奈。我怀疑他们是不是被洗脑了？应该是军官告诉他们做回教手势没什么。他们还小，不懂事情的敏感。不知他们的父母看了心里会觉得如何。
ReplyDelete哈哈哈，有人对号入座来了。。
ReplyDelete-----------------------------
你能接受本田车的使用者来评论马赛地吗？
=============================
哈哈哈，根据你BOB的逻辑，人民就不能批评政府了咯。。。
你们是哪门子的军人啊？
属于狙击部队的啊？
oh my goodness...
ReplyDeleteTo anonymous..
theres no point lying bout the truth tht we involved in the training... n whts for sure is we knew better than u OUTSIDER... theres no point giving out our id just to prove tht we r in the pic... its better b wise than getting urself in trouble... don u think?? its call WISDOM... whts the point of being brave bt rather stupid?? once again i have to say... in the military n in the school... its 2 DIFFERENT thnig... in the military.. its for UNIFORMITY n its FORMAL.. while in school its another... if u really wanna debate this issue.. y not u ask those chinese officers who serve for the country.. im sure their answer is the most accurate because they know better... please b grateful of wht malaysian army have done for the country.. u seriously dunno anything.. all u know is standing in ur own shoe, thinking of only urself n comment... even in ur previous comments.. i find it rude as u used a lot of disrespectful words n phrases n ur insult.. for IGNORANT ppl like u who act like 'who-knows-all' ...i dun think u in the position to comment any further...
like i said YB... because of ur act of not going deep into investigation b4 u put this out public... u have caused the non- related or irrelevant ppl to participate in this issue... n i can foresee this is bad to our society... those non- relevant ppl who commented in this blog will eventually show their discomfort to the society... n till now... those ppl who r bias towards this issue will take advantage... these ppl r ppl who rather win the issue than think rationally...n this will definitely corrupt the children or the younger generation's mind...is this wht we looking for?? r we taking this path to our vision 2020???
老马已经承认2020宏愿失败了，你还在睡觉啊？
ReplyDelete真是笑看你原来也是一名后备军.你在军营一个月学了些什么?争取人权民主? 争取上司与下属的互相尊敬? 何谓军人的基守则,你还记得吗?
ReplyDelete----------------------------
我的营地里面，当大家祈祷时，我们只需要保持肃静，并不需要作出回教祈祷手势，也不会说出不做就回家的言论。
---------------------------------------------
你跟YB的一般见识的看法又有何不同。
-------------------------------------------
这就是你我水平的差别所在。
所谓心理上的强逼.你的用词也很虚幻喔.
ReplyDelete尽然以你一人的看法，断定历年来数百名华人后备军是个无知。你果然是大马华人中的“万中无一”的智者。
to bob，
我没说数百名华人后备军是个无知，我说的是你（们）而已，别扯其他人下水。
To Anonymous~
ReplyDelete照你所说，照片里那些华裔军人都自愿做回教手势？
#根据YB的“根据投报人的说法，如果训练学员拒绝与马来学员一起作出祈祷手势就必须即刻离营” 我看留下的，都是自愿的吧~
可是我看他们照片里的表情个个都觉得好无奈。
#手势是在列队时才有，认真列队时你应该看不到喜哈笑脸吧~
我怀疑他们是不是被洗脑了？应该是军官告诉他们做回教手势没什么。他们还小，不懂事情的敏感。不知他们的父母看了心里会觉得如何。
#对于你的怀疑，你可以去该部门/地方了解。如果他们的父母觉得孩子回来后怪怪的,已经跑去投诉/报警吧。
to LoOI-KoNG,
ReplyDelete照你所说，照片里那些华裔军人都自愿做回教手势？
#根据YB的“根据投报人的说法，如果训练学员拒绝与马来学员一起作出祈祷手势就必须即刻离营” 我看留下的，都是自愿的吧~
------------------------------------------
留在马来西亚的人民不见得不爱国，爱国的也不一定爱国阵。
你真可爱，怪不得会有“回国论”出现。
你的头壳和那些回国论的家伙有什么不同？
tak suka boleh balik,nak tinggal mesti suka。。。
哈哈哈。。。
To anonymous~
ReplyDelete人民当然能批评政府啦.政府的政策(立法,司法与执法)都与人民息息相关. 人民都可深感其受.政策的效果或效应都赤裸裸地从民众里反映出来的. 难道,你忘了我们是活在民主制的国家吗.你我当然可以批评政府的政策咯.
哪军事的行政管制,难道你有接触到吗?别把别人的感受,给你的片面之词给表达出来.更何况只是从一张照片里判断,太武断了吧..难道,你分别得清楚个人的无奈与严肃的样子吗?
老兄/小姐,别以为我的看法与你有所不同,就以为我是军人啦..
难道,你以为只是军人才会反驳你以上的意见吗?
even it confirmed said to fail... but we r looking for a better future... n ur insult n comments r not doing any better ... no one in this world is better than anyone... its ur point of view tht make u different... i think the person in charge of raising this issue shud investigate. as for u.. rude ppl... please learn to respect others who comment... wht goes round comes round..
ReplyDeletepeace
To anonymous~
ReplyDelete别以为说理说不清， 就用别的话题来污涅反驳你的人。
不如，先考量你要写的东西，才好把它写上网吧。
民主制的自由言论，可不是被你的一知半解言论给滥用的。
别因为反驳而反驳吧。
你的华语水平那么不赖，难道你没学过“不知而言，不智，知而不言，不忠”的道理吗。。
好一句别因为反驳而反驳。。
ReplyDelete原银奉还给你。。
在我看起来，一知半解的人是你。。
现在有人反对回教徒在营地里面祈祷了吗？
转移话题的人也是你（们）。。
To Anonymous~
ReplyDelete留在马来西亚的人民不见得不爱国,爱国的也不一定爱国阵。
#你把课题偏远了。。。
To Anonymous who oh my goodness^^
Ya, this topic seem lost it purpose. Keep attacking each for winning the topic but not for the rationally and corrupt the children or the younger generation. I would like to stop the comment...
For advice, think before you talk/with wisdom. understanding the issue and give solution. and my solution is go visit the camp with related.
To Looi-KoNG
ReplyDeleteYou are rite!
agree to sr looi kong..
ReplyDeletei c no point further comment in this blog... some ppl has drfited this topic far from its purpose... n i c no end to this arguement.. i really hope the 1 who publish this issue shud have a thorough investigation.. go to the camp.. n please clearify the truth... as some ppl here r getting childish n irrational.. wht a sad 1.
Dear YB,
ReplyDeletei think u should stop questioning those practice in army. If we insider dun think is a problem, all those outsider have no right to question. Ask u all join army, scare here scare there, afraid kena buli. Then make noise questioning de practice inside. To those anonymous here who trying to spoil harmony in army or even Malaysia, u should be ashame and should learn from us join and experience. We have about 30 chinese in tat batch and we dun think is an issue.
benny wakil semua?
ReplyDelete100% wakil! Wat u wanna make noise somemore? One for all, stop this topic and dun question army again.
ReplyDeletehahaha, tapi u tau aku siapa?
ReplyDeletelu tak pernah tanya aku, tapi nak wakil aku.
State ur stand then. Cause i confident 100% at my batch and pround to be siri3/2009. Oni stupid outsider will question us, dun act one of us if mau question. Most of the ppl who comment here, all orang sendiri.
ReplyDelete绝对的服从？上司做不对的下属就可以不从。如果在战场上司叫你去死你就真的去死？你这个人也太没逻辑了。我倒想反问你，你从军都学到了什么？学到了绝对的服从？
ReplyDelete对啊，华裔也有军官吧？怎不见他们叫马来军人做佛教合掌手势？看他们会服从吗。
ReplyDeleteto anonymous
ReplyDelete我觉得如果你认为自己真的有勇又有谋的话~
我个人觉得你浪费时间在这里忙着回其他人的comment，倒不如找找解决方案，比如：写信去国防部去投诉啊，写信去给国家最高元首啊，问可以不可以non-muslim 在列队的时候不可以作出回教祈祷手势？？
我也是后备军，但不是你所谓的“没胆”或“无知”的后备军。
1.在军队里我们也是有个人宗教信仰，也会个我们时间去各自的教堂神庙祈祷。
2.假如上司叫我们去送死的话，我们当然会以个人的判断力去判断每一件事情对错也可以拒绝或接受，如果真的去送死可以救到其他人保护到国家的话，这也是的保家卫国，有价值~
3.就如你所说的“我绝对不会送我的孩子进这样的军营。”
#假如真的没有这样的事情发生，你就真的会送你的孩子进军营吗？
还是你希望要“怎样”的军营？
4.拜观音的佛教徒都不吃牛肉的
#一开始教官就已经有问谁不吃牛肉可以告诉厨房特别煮给不吃牛肉者.
5.我参加军队是要保家为国，为社会做出贡献.
可能你会觉得我还小啦~无知啦~
因为立场不同，观念不同
兼听则明。
ReplyDelete消息来源不祥，只有一张照片。。。如果我曾经跟Adolf Hitler, 日本军官和照，那么，我是个大魔头吗？
不能够断章取义。
所以，要让人家信服，最有力的证据，是去调查，去做资料收集，去求证，而不是在这里争执，没用的，因为马来西亚也不会因为在这里争执到轰轰烈烈而有改善。
很多人，包括我自己，都对国阵不满！！！
可是，对当今政府不满，不代表对国家不满。相信很多外人，都是因为对目前的政府不满，而来这里宣泄。所以，很多论点都是站不住脚的，都是属于发泄不满的成分多一点。
相信大家都知道，军人是军人，人民是人民，后备军是人民，但是学习了军人的知识。人民不能够接受军中的生活，要求；而很多退伍军人，也很难融入社会。。。。。。因为，生活不同，节奏不同。
YB的出发点可能是好的，不过，单凭家长的说词，照片，根本就不能道出个所以来。还有，需要有两方面的声音，那就是后备军的说词及照片提供者的说词，不然，很难做准。
所以，个人认为再争执下去，也是没有结果的，我们要的是数据，要的是双方面的说词，不然，这好像是狗仔队的娱乐报那样，没有公信力！
那些后备军的朋友们，相信看了一些偏差的事情后，急着想来澄清，让公众知道真相，可惜，已经越描越黑，结果越扯越远了。相信智者会分得清的。
人民的眼睛是雪亮的，谁在做事，谁在睡觉，我们知道的。
这个Anonymous10/10/10 2:15 AM 讲的就像人话~
ReplyDelete也讲的有理智~！！
哇！六国大封相！
ReplyDelete好混乱，究竟多少个人在这里留言？
YB，能否更改设定，别让留言者使用Anonymous,强制留言者一定要使用一个名字（杜撰的也没关系）。
我都不懂谁打谁了。
火箭枪手，国阵打手，户主心切，各自精彩！
ReplyDelete别停下来，继续继续！
在我看来，整篇文告的重点在于
ReplyDelete“为何这名军官强迫这些非回教徒学员作出回教祈祷手势？”
有者为了抹黑而抹黑，有者为了辩论而辩论。
我都不了解你们这些网络枪手阿鸡阿左，讲一大堆废话琢磨。
楼上的说听于命令,假如,我是说假如,51x发生，派你去x华人,
ReplyDelete你怎么做？x，你就是千古罪人，不x，你自己先死.所以说当一名真正的军人不能一昧服从。对的，就从，错的，不从也可以。军人要有自己的原则。
给Anonymous11/10/10 10:17 PM
ReplyDelete你知道在任务中，1个军人不服从命令会连累整个部队灭亡吗？不知道，因为你不是军人。
你是挖到没话题才扯去51x吗？以你的智商来讲，怕你不明。你会派华人x华人吗？ 这等于给武器华人背叛，笨蛋！然后以你这种笨蛋的智商，你会分得清楚什么是-〉对的，就从，错的，不从也可以 的道理吗？
给Anonymous11/10/10 11:31 PM
ReplyDelete你就是军人咯~
不去执勤，来找碴啊？
给Anonymous2/10/10 10:36 AM
ReplyDelete我没说是军人
Dear YB/Politician,
ReplyDeleteI'm no saint. And i'm not that clever either.
But being as an elected representative for the people, you are not doing your job well. In fact, you are making yourself looks like a idiot so to speak.
You seriously have the attitude and culture of blaming other people; and not admitting your mistakes for not doing extensive research. Instead you just rely on one source and a hear say.
All in all, i think i wasted my vote on you. What difference DAP compared to BN if you're acting and behaving like them? at least those buffoon realize their mistake and tried to fix things. Thou eventually they will fail.
But you.. keep on denying, keep on manipulating other people sentences, over and over again.
I want to puke. man do i wasted my vote on you. Shame on you. you do owe those an apology for those noble people serving in Army/Wataniah. At least they are willing to sacrifice their life for this land.
You? behind the desk typing and making false accusation.
I demand an apology. I want my vote to be worth it. Save our face a bit la YB.
p/s : guys, who wanna bet this Politician will try to reiterate, re-manipulate, re-explain, denying and trying to say that he's right?
Politician, right is always right lar, wrong is always wrong lar.
首先，我先声明YB所提出的2008事件与所上载的照片是完全不同时间及地点...不用说也知‘报料’者更本都不在相片内。
ReplyDeleteYB只是‘丢’个问题，就那么多回应，果然这‘冷炒饭’很‘抢手’。
其实大家都对‘宗教’这话题各有己见，没对没错。较为对自己宗教虔诚的，就难以容忍这个动作。
学校发生这种事件，人神公愤，因为民众不需太形势化。
军队讲究形式和整齐，手势代表祈祷仪式进行中。除了列队之外，非回教徒可以不举手，只需保持沉默。
这根本不是话题的话题，相信已经为YB带来不少‘声望’。恭喜！
Congratulation YB,
Mission accomplished.
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